That pretty much sums up my experience with couples counseling too.
He would take up time waxing poetry and talking about how hard his life was, and how much bullshit he has to go through. And my couples counselor would listen to him empathetically. And I would just stare at him. Like, ok dude. I haven't had a chance to talk yet.
Oh, but when I said I wanted to leave because I was unhappy? "I had no idea you were unhappy."
My ex is a reddit bro and I swear to god there is probably a channel on there somewhere telling them how to use all the therapy speak to avoid actually ever resorting to introspection or accountability. Every session, to the therapist, so earnest!! And then we walk out and NOTHING I MEAN NOTHING is different.
Couples counseling is a big NO when there’s coercive control, weaponized incompetence or any form of abuse.
Why does society think it’s ok to go to counseling when it’s clear you’re being taken advantage of?! Abused?
I like Lundy Bancroft approach on this: the man needs to go to counseling to manage his control issues. And the counselor needs to be speaking to the wife separately to see if she’s seeing any change in the home.
Thank you for sharing this - I needed to read this.
If couples counseling is starting from the premise that both people are at fault for why the marriage is bad, when the actual root of the problem is that one person has decided, on a daily, hourly, moment-by-moment basis, that their spouse, who has told them in a million different ways that they are drowning, overwhelmed, and exhausted to the point where there is no joy in the world needs to just get over it and stop complaining, then no, couples counseling will not work.
I resonate so much with your story about when your leg was broken and your ex wouldn't make the rice. My parallel moment happened when I was approximately 7 months pregnant with a baby who would ultimately be born premature a few weeks after this incident. I had come home from work and was trying to make dinner, but had been having what I thought were Braxton Hicks contractions so painfully I could barely stand (I honestly think these were probably early labor contractions, in hindsight). I asked my husband to take over making the food and his solution was to bring me a chair.
A chair.
So I could sit, hunched over the stove, making dinner, so he could go play video games.
Some relationships are so far beyond saving, and it's not because one spouse was a 'poor communicator' or had 'higher standards' or 'micromanaged and demanded her husband do everything her way.' Sometimes it's when their behavior shows they have gone past the point of not caring about you, and they behave as though they actually despise you, and they treat you worse than they would their actual worst enemy.
Thank you for sharing. I’m so sorry that happened to you. What was interesting when I broke my ankle (five years into the marriage we were working so hard to save) it made me sit in the abuse and the rubble that was my marriage. I could no longer perform around it and make it “work.” It was one of the darkest moments of my life.
What I’m trying to give myself grace for now is how I struggled to communicate everything too while in therapy because the gaslighting is no joke. It has taken me almost two years being out of the marriage to see the abuse for what it was, as we as women and mothers are so good at adapting and absorbing it all in order to take care of our children and live.
And I agree, for some men, the programming is so entrenched, there is no way to “therapy” your way out of it.
You are so right, the gaslighting is absolutely no joke! When I brought up the chair incident years later to my husband as the moment I knew our marriage could not be saved, he claimed he didn't remember it happening. And maybe he doesn't, because it was just completely normal behavior. Just another day of not caring, not even worth remembering.
It doesn't help that the prevailing narrative about all of this is that women are too demanding for poor men who are doing their best. Some men definitely are doing their best and are themselves overwhelmed and that can be addressed.
Some men are definitely NOT doing their best, but get to happily coast along with that narrative and feel understood and forgiven while their wife is *eye roll* such a feminist harpy amiright?
I hate that you not only broke your ankle but were treated with no care whatsoever, but I am very glad that you have been able to transform that moment into a better future, and I hope that for myself as well.
I have definitely encountered therapists and counselors who were harmful in that they were not honest with me what was going on in my marriage….emotional, financial, psychological abuse. What a waste of time and money plus additional trauma that was not needed (I.e. leading me on by just telling me “how to say it better.” I only had one (a woman) that was honest with me. I have since heard from multiple women who have had the same experience.
"The harsh truth is that some marriages aren’t salvageable without abandoning yourself, and in that case, it’s advisable to walk away." Oof. Yes. A thousand times yes.
And then there are those wise counselors like the one you mentioned, like the one who told me very early on, “Don’t throw pearls before swine. He will never understand what you’re saying you need. Get out now and save yourself the heartache,” that are completely ignored. For decades, the woman grasps with futile desperation to the “try harder” fantasy. Eventually, when her energy for trying harder is depleted, when her heart is empty, and all hope gone, she reads your post, and sighs.
So glad my ex was not on board when I wanted to go when we started having issues. Only when I left did he want to go and I refused. Grateful we never did. I may still be stuck in it. This was eye opening. Thank you!
Thank you for sharing your experience. As a therapist, although not a couples therapist, it’s important for me to hear your experience and how biases can easily get in the way of seeing what’s actually happening. I’m glad to hear you’re feeling more free and spacious as you look ahead 💛
Our therapist told me what a good dad he was since he “did so much.” Yes. He packed the lunch boxes with the snacks I shopped for, stocked, tracked, etc in the containers I bought washed and replaced in the drawer with the paycheck I earned. But wasn’t he a good dad for “helping”. The bias was intense and I didn’t see it until later.
So many people are empowered by mental health practitioners who have the courage and clarity to tell the truth!
As an Internal Family Systems life coach, I have encountered so many people whose best experiences in therapy was being fired by their couples coach or therapist!
If you are looking for a practitioner, one question you might ask is: when do you fire your clients? How many have you fired?
If they’ve never fired anyone, that’s a red flag. 🚩
I really doubt if "couples counseling" is truly helpful to anyone. Seriously, if all you need is to "communicate better" you probably don't need a counselor. Most of the "communicate better" just lays the victim out to be more vulnerable and helps the abuser learn how to better manipulate the deep desires of the victim. It feels like couples counselors are grifting off of real trauma and getting money selling snake oil of 'communication'. Stay far away from couples counseling - especially religious couples counselors, who help the abuser spiritually abuse their victim into the mix.
Best quote: "The harsh truth is that some marriages aren’t salvageable without abandoning yourself, and in that case, it’s advisable to walk away."
This horribleness of couples counseling has ruined two that I know -- one was a wife in an abusive marriage and the other was a very sweet, good husband in an abusive marriage. So, couples counseling is essentially used as an abuse tool by an abuser, regardless of sex.
I agree. I couldn’t believe it when I listed my stresses, concerns and problems, and in the end that mental load was ignored and we “needed to just hang on it’s a hard phase”. Fuck that. It did help me be very clear when I made the decision to end my marriage.
Thanks @KHolbekistan for your support. "David," I appreciate your concern for my son's wellbeing. What this story doesn't mention, which I've written about in my own work which I plan to publish soon, is that he was already asking me why "Mommy and Daddy were always fighting." And you know what really broke my heart? He asked this on days we weren't even fighting, which showed me that the tension was so taut in our home, that even when my son was busy watching cartoons, there was little air for him to actually breathe within the house.
There is no easy answer for any of this; you have to choose which hard you can live with. As I've written on quite a bit, our society perpetuates an image of divorce as being shameful and destructive for a family, and while that can be true, so too can a marriage perpetuate an equal measure of harm.
I'm fortunate that my ex and I both wanted to center our son in everything we did as we restructured our family post-divorce, and at this stage, we're at one of our healthiest moments as a family. We all go out to dinner for special family occasions and we've even travelled together, with separate rooms of course. The point was to show our son that even though we weren't still married, we were still a family. And at this stage, James seems to be thriving, as he sees both parents are healthy and happy, which gives him the freedom to do the same.
Thank you for all your loving support. Completely agree. I blocked that man. First harmful experience on here with Substack. At first I thought I'd try to engage, as you did so elegantly, in a loving dialogue, as it's clear to see he has been so hurt by the system he's so loyally espouses. But now he's just spouting hate, which I have no tolerance for and will not abide by. All my best to you!
In Christian marriage, you submit to your husband, and he submits to the church.
I submitted to the church when my wife’s mental illness got out of control (I obeyed instructions from another man, a pastor). But you know what? Even when my wife had the clarity of mind to see how desperate her situation was (she’d been hospitalized against her will, by the State, several times, and lived dangerously, for brief periods, on the street), when the church pastor, who she begged for help, told her she needed to see a counselor about trauma, she refused. Her refusal was in the form of an excuse. She always had a ready excuse for not looking inward and not doing the thing the church required of her. Today she has alienated everyone in her family, including her elderly parents. She is living somewhere (I don’t even know anymore - I have lost track) under the authority of the State, whereas she could have lived a comfortable middle class lifestyle if she had humbled herself and submitted to righteous authority.
When I joined the Army there was no “this is not fun anymore, I want out” clause. Neither should there be such a clause added to marriage - “I don’t like marriage anymore, I want out.”
No fault divorce, along with hormonal birth control, essentially extinguished biblical marriage. What people engage in today is a contract where sexual services and procreation are exchanged for money. It’s terrible. And I aim to shame people until they can no longer deny this horrible truth.
No fault divorce has freed women from abusive men like you. A marriage isn’t supposed to have rules of war like the army FFS.
“Biblical marriage” is a joke. How many wives and concubines constitute a biblical marriage?
It varies? Oh, and, a woman who is raped has to submit to marriage to her rapist?
Right.
Yes, some of us have read the Bible and it isn’t a good look on you.
Learn the history of the writings that were compiled by misogynists who deliberately left out any of the writings that contradicted their patriarchal determination to erase women’s voices and deny women’s power and spiritual gifts.
Darliss, you must understand, my wife has a daughter (my step daughter). When my wife ended up in the psychiatric emergency room, then left of her own accord to enter a homeless shelter (for six months), she left her teenage daughter living with me. I did my best to shelter my step daughter from the hurt that came with that.
Your response only confirms that you want the freedom to serve yourself, others be damned. This attitude will not age well.
So, Darliss, my wife has alienated herself from everyone in her family, including her parents. Do we lack compassion or is it possible that my wife has a serious problem that she refuses to face (kinda like James’s mother)?
That pretty much sums up my experience with couples counseling too.
He would take up time waxing poetry and talking about how hard his life was, and how much bullshit he has to go through. And my couples counselor would listen to him empathetically. And I would just stare at him. Like, ok dude. I haven't had a chance to talk yet.
Oh, but when I said I wanted to leave because I was unhappy? "I had no idea you were unhappy."
Bull. Shit.
Thank you Wendy for sharing🙌
My ex is a reddit bro and I swear to god there is probably a channel on there somewhere telling them how to use all the therapy speak to avoid actually ever resorting to introspection or accountability. Every session, to the therapist, so earnest!! And then we walk out and NOTHING I MEAN NOTHING is different.
🤣
Couples counseling is a big NO when there’s coercive control, weaponized incompetence or any form of abuse.
Why does society think it’s ok to go to counseling when it’s clear you’re being taken advantage of?! Abused?
I like Lundy Bancroft approach on this: the man needs to go to counseling to manage his control issues. And the counselor needs to be speaking to the wife separately to see if she’s seeing any change in the home.
Thank you for sharing this - I needed to read this.
If couples counseling is starting from the premise that both people are at fault for why the marriage is bad, when the actual root of the problem is that one person has decided, on a daily, hourly, moment-by-moment basis, that their spouse, who has told them in a million different ways that they are drowning, overwhelmed, and exhausted to the point where there is no joy in the world needs to just get over it and stop complaining, then no, couples counseling will not work.
I resonate so much with your story about when your leg was broken and your ex wouldn't make the rice. My parallel moment happened when I was approximately 7 months pregnant with a baby who would ultimately be born premature a few weeks after this incident. I had come home from work and was trying to make dinner, but had been having what I thought were Braxton Hicks contractions so painfully I could barely stand (I honestly think these were probably early labor contractions, in hindsight). I asked my husband to take over making the food and his solution was to bring me a chair.
A chair.
So I could sit, hunched over the stove, making dinner, so he could go play video games.
Some relationships are so far beyond saving, and it's not because one spouse was a 'poor communicator' or had 'higher standards' or 'micromanaged and demanded her husband do everything her way.' Sometimes it's when their behavior shows they have gone past the point of not caring about you, and they behave as though they actually despise you, and they treat you worse than they would their actual worst enemy.
Thank you for sharing. I’m so sorry that happened to you. What was interesting when I broke my ankle (five years into the marriage we were working so hard to save) it made me sit in the abuse and the rubble that was my marriage. I could no longer perform around it and make it “work.” It was one of the darkest moments of my life.
What I’m trying to give myself grace for now is how I struggled to communicate everything too while in therapy because the gaslighting is no joke. It has taken me almost two years being out of the marriage to see the abuse for what it was, as we as women and mothers are so good at adapting and absorbing it all in order to take care of our children and live.
And I agree, for some men, the programming is so entrenched, there is no way to “therapy” your way out of it.
You are so right, the gaslighting is absolutely no joke! When I brought up the chair incident years later to my husband as the moment I knew our marriage could not be saved, he claimed he didn't remember it happening. And maybe he doesn't, because it was just completely normal behavior. Just another day of not caring, not even worth remembering.
It doesn't help that the prevailing narrative about all of this is that women are too demanding for poor men who are doing their best. Some men definitely are doing their best and are themselves overwhelmed and that can be addressed.
Some men are definitely NOT doing their best, but get to happily coast along with that narrative and feel understood and forgiven while their wife is *eye roll* such a feminist harpy amiright?
I hate that you not only broke your ankle but were treated with no care whatsoever, but I am very glad that you have been able to transform that moment into a better future, and I hope that for myself as well.
I have definitely encountered therapists and counselors who were harmful in that they were not honest with me what was going on in my marriage….emotional, financial, psychological abuse. What a waste of time and money plus additional trauma that was not needed (I.e. leading me on by just telling me “how to say it better.” I only had one (a woman) that was honest with me. I have since heard from multiple women who have had the same experience.
Good for you. There are good therapists and bad. I had a good one. Told me to run like hell.
"The harsh truth is that some marriages aren’t salvageable without abandoning yourself, and in that case, it’s advisable to walk away." Oof. Yes. A thousand times yes.
Couples counseling was one of the worst experiences of my life.
So so resonate. Thank you.
And then there are those wise counselors like the one you mentioned, like the one who told me very early on, “Don’t throw pearls before swine. He will never understand what you’re saying you need. Get out now and save yourself the heartache,” that are completely ignored. For decades, the woman grasps with futile desperation to the “try harder” fantasy. Eventually, when her energy for trying harder is depleted, when her heart is empty, and all hope gone, she reads your post, and sighs.
So glad my ex was not on board when I wanted to go when we started having issues. Only when I left did he want to go and I refused. Grateful we never did. I may still be stuck in it. This was eye opening. Thank you!
Thank you for sharing your experience. As a therapist, although not a couples therapist, it’s important for me to hear your experience and how biases can easily get in the way of seeing what’s actually happening. I’m glad to hear you’re feeling more free and spacious as you look ahead 💛
Our therapist told me what a good dad he was since he “did so much.” Yes. He packed the lunch boxes with the snacks I shopped for, stocked, tracked, etc in the containers I bought washed and replaced in the drawer with the paycheck I earned. But wasn’t he a good dad for “helping”. The bias was intense and I didn’t see it until later.
Ooof. Eva, I’m sorry. That is such a dismissive and short sighted response from someone who is mean to provide more a nuanced and expansive lens.
Not your fault! But I can see the internal role biases inherent, even in therapy, from my viewpoint now. It’s why covid broke so many marriages.
So many people are empowered by mental health practitioners who have the courage and clarity to tell the truth!
As an Internal Family Systems life coach, I have encountered so many people whose best experiences in therapy was being fired by their couples coach or therapist!
If you are looking for a practitioner, one question you might ask is: when do you fire your clients? How many have you fired?
If they’ve never fired anyone, that’s a red flag. 🚩
Thank you Melissa! So helpful.
I really doubt if "couples counseling" is truly helpful to anyone. Seriously, if all you need is to "communicate better" you probably don't need a counselor. Most of the "communicate better" just lays the victim out to be more vulnerable and helps the abuser learn how to better manipulate the deep desires of the victim. It feels like couples counselors are grifting off of real trauma and getting money selling snake oil of 'communication'. Stay far away from couples counseling - especially religious couples counselors, who help the abuser spiritually abuse their victim into the mix.
Best quote: "The harsh truth is that some marriages aren’t salvageable without abandoning yourself, and in that case, it’s advisable to walk away."
This horribleness of couples counseling has ruined two that I know -- one was a wife in an abusive marriage and the other was a very sweet, good husband in an abusive marriage. So, couples counseling is essentially used as an abuse tool by an abuser, regardless of sex.
Reading this makes me thankful for my wife.
I agree. I couldn’t believe it when I listed my stresses, concerns and problems, and in the end that mental load was ignored and we “needed to just hang on it’s a hard phase”. Fuck that. It did help me be very clear when I made the decision to end my marriage.
Feminism strikes again! I am sure James is happy that his parents are now divorced.
Thanks @KHolbekistan for your support. "David," I appreciate your concern for my son's wellbeing. What this story doesn't mention, which I've written about in my own work which I plan to publish soon, is that he was already asking me why "Mommy and Daddy were always fighting." And you know what really broke my heart? He asked this on days we weren't even fighting, which showed me that the tension was so taut in our home, that even when my son was busy watching cartoons, there was little air for him to actually breathe within the house.
There is no easy answer for any of this; you have to choose which hard you can live with. As I've written on quite a bit, our society perpetuates an image of divorce as being shameful and destructive for a family, and while that can be true, so too can a marriage perpetuate an equal measure of harm.
I'm fortunate that my ex and I both wanted to center our son in everything we did as we restructured our family post-divorce, and at this stage, we're at one of our healthiest moments as a family. We all go out to dinner for special family occasions and we've even travelled together, with separate rooms of course. The point was to show our son that even though we weren't still married, we were still a family. And at this stage, James seems to be thriving, as he sees both parents are healthy and happy, which gives him the freedom to do the same.
Don’t care. Many words to justify what you wanted - not your son.
The best gift a woman can give her children is a happy mother. Full stop.
Thank you for all your loving support. Completely agree. I blocked that man. First harmful experience on here with Substack. At first I thought I'd try to engage, as you did so elegantly, in a loving dialogue, as it's clear to see he has been so hurt by the system he's so loyally espouses. But now he's just spouting hate, which I have no tolerance for and will not abide by. All my best to you!
The statistics don’t bear that out. The children of single fathers have measurably better social outcomes than the children of single mothers.
And where's the father in your world? Is he responsible for carrying his half of the marriage, or is it ok for him to place his own needs first?
In Christian marriage, you submit to your husband, and he submits to the church.
I submitted to the church when my wife’s mental illness got out of control (I obeyed instructions from another man, a pastor). But you know what? Even when my wife had the clarity of mind to see how desperate her situation was (she’d been hospitalized against her will, by the State, several times, and lived dangerously, for brief periods, on the street), when the church pastor, who she begged for help, told her she needed to see a counselor about trauma, she refused. Her refusal was in the form of an excuse. She always had a ready excuse for not looking inward and not doing the thing the church required of her. Today she has alienated everyone in her family, including her elderly parents. She is living somewhere (I don’t even know anymore - I have lost track) under the authority of the State, whereas she could have lived a comfortable middle class lifestyle if she had humbled herself and submitted to righteous authority.
When I joined the Army there was no “this is not fun anymore, I want out” clause. Neither should there be such a clause added to marriage - “I don’t like marriage anymore, I want out.”
No fault divorce, along with hormonal birth control, essentially extinguished biblical marriage. What people engage in today is a contract where sexual services and procreation are exchanged for money. It’s terrible. And I aim to shame people until they can no longer deny this horrible truth.
No fault divorce has freed women from abusive men like you. A marriage isn’t supposed to have rules of war like the army FFS.
“Biblical marriage” is a joke. How many wives and concubines constitute a biblical marriage?
It varies? Oh, and, a woman who is raped has to submit to marriage to her rapist?
Right.
Yes, some of us have read the Bible and it isn’t a good look on you.
Learn the history of the writings that were compiled by misogynists who deliberately left out any of the writings that contradicted their patriarchal determination to erase women’s voices and deny women’s power and spiritual gifts.
Darliss, you must understand, my wife has a daughter (my step daughter). When my wife ended up in the psychiatric emergency room, then left of her own accord to enter a homeless shelter (for six months), she left her teenage daughter living with me. I did my best to shelter my step daughter from the hurt that came with that.
Your response only confirms that you want the freedom to serve yourself, others be damned. This attitude will not age well.
Fewer words to say you came here with an axe to grind and no interest in the actual situation.
So, props for efficiency, I guess.
Weirdo
Are you an abusive partner? I would not be shocked.
So, Darliss, my wife has alienated herself from everyone in her family, including her parents. Do we lack compassion or is it possible that my wife has a serious problem that she refuses to face (kinda like James’s mother)?